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Question: Should we include a difficulty rating of languages on their introduction pages?
Yes
No

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hashi
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« on: Jan 09 2010, 07:18:38 »

What I would like to know is: Currently we have pages of introduction for each language (or are working on them anyway). Should we include a rating out of 5 for the language based on difficulty for english speakers?

For those of whom are from unilang, and have seen the recent thread about the blog some idiot wrote called "Most difficult languages" may be against the idea based on how biased his opinions were.

If this goes ahead, it would have to be a majority rules type system were we could vote on what we believe the most accurate rating to be.

Not only this, but perhaps we could break the ratings down into things like "pronunciation", "grammar", "spelling" etc, because some languages will be ranked the same as others, though for different reasons.

What are your opinions?
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Taydr
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 09 2010, 07:20:49 »

If we do go ahead with it I like the idea of splitting it into sections, and rating each one individually and then giving an overall rating.
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 10 2010, 04:03:08 »

I second that, if we do, it should be split up into sections as that would make a more fair assessment
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Nagastra
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 10 2010, 04:13:39 »

Seems like a pretty cool addition.
Get a good sample of opinions though.
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Meera
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 16 2010, 09:02:05 »

yeah we should Smile
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Renaçido
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 23 2010, 11:47:16 »

You can't be any serious... Why, why did the burnlaur bug hit you? =(
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hashi
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 24 2010, 12:27:35 »

You can't be any serious... Why, why did the burnlaur bug hit you? =(

The only difference here is we're not a single person with a rather biased view and a fake degree.
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Renaçido
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 30 2010, 01:10:41 »

The only difference here is we're not a single person with a rather biased view and a fake degree.
I'd still insist on avoiding the number system, really. I don't a see a way where you could justify comparing languages like that in an objective matter: how can one tell how difficult a language is in comparison to others if not knowing every language on earth? I'd prefer just to mention the difficulties and the easier parts of learning it in an extensive way, please... It's kind of embarrassing supposing we're more knowledgeable on languages... Leave the number system for more pedantic people like burnlaur and the guy from HTLAL...
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hashi
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 30 2010, 05:10:44 »

The only difference here is we're not a single person with a rather biased view and a fake degree.
I'd still insist on avoiding the number system, really. I don't a see a way where you could justify comparing languages like that in an objective matter: how can one tell how difficult a language is in comparison to others if not knowing every language on earth? I'd prefer just to mention the difficulties and the easier parts of learning it in an extensive way, please... It's kind of embarrassing supposing we're more knowledgeable on languages... Leave the number system for more pedantic people like burnlaur and the guy from HTLAL...

Hmmmm. I can see where you're coming from, but I can also see it not hurting anyone. I suppose as long as people realise they're not rigid or precis, but more so an overview or an estimate, there shouldn't be any harm done. If it does become a problem I shall remove them Smile
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Renaçido
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 30 2010, 05:26:28 »

It's never going to cause any harm, but I don't encourage it because it's extremely informal... and... just, not linguistically accurate. =S
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hashi
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 30 2010, 05:29:38 »

It's never going to cause any harm, but I don't encourage it because it's extremely informal... and... just, not linguistically accurate. =S

Do you think it could be better if we explained WHY it's rated what it is ... like on the page itself?
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Renaçido
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 31 2010, 04:00:07 »

What I'm proposing is to list which are the difficulties in learning it (weird sounds, particular properties of words, availability of materials), and what are some easier points that sort of counter-balance it. No numbers at all.

Some quickly written sample:
Quote
Standard Arabic's noun morphology is difficult in that it distinguishes singular, dual and plural number, for both masculine and feminine gender, three cases (nominative, accusative, and genitive), and definiteness (definite and construct state, and indefinite). All written in one word.

However, the dual is incredibly easy to derivate from the singular: Simply take the stem, and add -āni for nominative case, and -ayni for accusative and genitive case. The plural still has to be learned along with the singular though, what is usually called "broken" plural: كتاب kitābun "book", كتب kutubun "books; طبل ṭablun "drum", طبول ṭubūlun "drums"; شكل šaklun "shape", أشكال 'aškālun "shapes". For adjective agreement, you can consider the masculine singular to be the basic form of the adjective, and knowing a very short list of suffixes you can derivate all the the other forms. A good number of adjectives also have broken plurals like nouns though. Arabic is also special in that in the plural, all non-human nouns are always feminine singular, so you would refer to a group of baskets as "she".

You can easily guess if a word has feminine gender. In the singular, they usually end in ـة -atu(n) -ata(n) -ati(n),‎ ـاء -ā'u -ā'a; in the dual, in ـتان -atāni,‎ ـتين -atayni; in the plural, ـات -ātun, -ātin.

The cases, unlike other languages like German or Russian, are amusingly simple, consisting of only a handful of suffixes. There are two noun/adjective declensions, but they only difference is if you add an -n in the singular or not. Now you must only concentrate on learning which case is used where. Definiteness is marked by a combination of case and the article al-, and remember that adjectives also carry the article when agreeing! أطفال شطر 'aṭfālun šuṭṭarun "skillful children", الأطفال الشطر al-'aṭfālu š-šuṭṭaru (literally, "the-children the-skillful").

And then you would continue like that for verbal morphology, syntax, pronunciation, and dialectal issues.
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hashi
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 31 2010, 04:03:03 »

Couldn't we use a combination of both?
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Renaçido
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 31 2010, 04:16:25 »

Well, looking at the poll, people here seem to like the number system, so I think we can stay with a combination of both.

But I'll never stop finding the number system very embarrassing. ¬¬ Too non-objective...
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